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Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Posted: 1571102057000
Classification: Query
I am not sure how to go about this, or if there is even a way to combat this problem, but I figured I might as well post about this to see if anyone else has gone through a similar problem or can offer any advice.

It is becoming really difficult to research my family line from L'ubotin. The parish records on familysearch go back to 1777 for marriages and 1787 for baptisms, but it seems like there are tons of missing records.

For instance, the baptism record for my 4th great grandfather Michael Misenko simply does not exist. I know he was born around 1818, and I know for a fact that he was born in L'ubotin because every source I have on him states so. Despite all of that, there simply appears to be no baptism record for him, which makes trying to find his true parents terribly difficult.

Of course I would not bother posting this if it was just a slight fluke for my 4th great grandfather, but the records from L'ubotin, at least the ones available through familysearch, are missing whole chunks of people; it feels like almost a quarter of the entire village is missing...

I first thought maybe my ancestor was not baptized? But I honestly doubt an entire quarter of a village would just randomly not get baptized.

Literally at least a quarter of my relatives from L'ubotin that I find in marriage records can not be traced back to a baptism record, even if their denomination was roman catholic. (The parish records from L'ubotin are roman catholic)

The most annoying part of this is that the parish records from L'ubotin go back to 1787! So I feel like I should be able to find 99% of my ancestors and relatives from this village, but in reality I can only find like 50% to 75%, and I end up stuck with brick walls in the early/mid 1800s.

This is such a shame for me because I am usually able to get back to the early 1700s, and very rarely the late 1600s with village records that end in the late 1700s.

Obviously I can't do that with the parish records from L'ubotin because of how much information that you would think would be there simply is not.

If you would like any other examples of missing information other than my 4th great grandfather please say so, I will be happy to share everything I have. I have found one case so far where an entire family is missing except for one of their daughters. They were in the 1869 census, but the only baptism record was of one of their daughters.

I would really appreciate any helpful advice or insight into this problem.
Thank you.

Re: Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Posted: 1571146878000
Classification: Query
The most likely explanation is that some of them were Greek Catholic. What does the 1869 census say in the religion column?

Dvorzsák's gazetteer (1877: https://kt.lib.pte.hu/cgi-bin/kt.cgi?konyvtar/kt03110501/0_0...) says Lubotin (later Lubotény, now Ľubotín) Greek Catholics were recorded in Pusztamező (now Vislanka, Slovakia), which FamilySearch for some reason files with Gombosfalu (https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/758419). Unfortunately, the images only start in 1826 (in atrocious handwriting on damaged pages).

(Gombosfalu or Gombosfalva was later combined with Szentgyörgy to make Gombosszentgyörgy, which is now Hubošovce, Slovakia. Dvorzsák says neither place had a Greek Catholic church, and residents were recorded in Hradiszkó/Radoskő/Hradisko, so I haven't a clue why FS adds Gombosfalu to the catalog entry for Pusztamező GC. I checked the images, and they're definitely Pusztamező, not Gombos-anything: the ones that identify a location basically alternate between Pusztamező and Gyurkó. The latter was an outlying farm or settlement belonging to Palocsa, according to Fényes Elek's geographical dictionary; according to the maps on Mapire.hu [https://mapire.eu/hu/synchron/europe-18century-firstsurvey/m...], it was later called Györkvágása. You have to go through it to get from Lubotin to Pusztamező.)

It was common in the case of mixed-denomination marriages for children to follow the religion of the same-sex parent: boys would be baptised in Dad's religion, girls in Mom's. When looking for marriages, start with the bride's religion, but don't be surprised if it's in the groom's church instead. (Especially if he was the Roman Catholic one -- Rome was and is ever-insistent.)

Re: Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Posted: 1571174616000
Classification: Query
Thank you for the information, this was very helpful, and looking at the records from Pusztamezo I can definitely see that this applies to a good chunk of the people in the census records that are not in the parish records.

But there is still a very significant chunk missing, still at least 15%, all of which are then Roman Catholic.

A good example of this is the family of my 4th great grandfather Janko Volk. He was born around 1854, and if not for the 1869 census, I would not even know that he existed, and I would have yet another brick wall in the mid 1800s. The census tells me that his parents were Janko Volk, and Susanna Zavaczky, it also tells me they were all Roman Catholic, born in L'ubotin, and gives me several of his siblings.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-899K-735T?i...

The only baptism that exists in the L'ubotin records from this family is the youngest daughter Susanna's baptism. I managed to find the marriage record for the parents, they were married in 1849 in L'ubotin, and the marriage record also confirms they were both Roman Catholic and born in L'ubotin. Although according to the marriage record Janko the father was born in 1828, 2 years off from the census record, and Susanna Zavaczky is apparently Elisabeth Zavaczky.

There is literally no baptism of a Susanna Zavaczky, or an Elisabeth Zavaczky throughout the entirety of the 1820s and 1830s in the parish records of L'ubotin. In fact, there is not even a single Elisabeth or Susanna Zavaczky baptized in any of the records from L'ubotin...

As for Janko Volk, the closest I could find is a Janko Volk born in 1824 to Andras Volk and Katarina Marcin, but I have doubts that they would be the same person if the marriage record and census record are consistently 4 to 6 years off from 1824...

At this point, I have no idea what to do, nor do I even fully know what has caused this problem and why such a large number of seemingly Roman Catholics are simply not listed in the Roman Catholic baptism records for the village they were allegedly born in.

To me it seems that from 1787 up to about 1860 there are tons of people that are missing that very well should be there but are not. It starts to let up in the 1860s and get more consistent.

There are also a lot of registers of deaths of people in the Roman Catholic records who were Roman Catholic and who also do not show up in the baptisms, including infants.

Re: Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Posted: 1571233777000
Classification: Query
The thing that stuck out to me is that there are a grand total of 10 baptisms recorded in 1848. The parish was larger than that -- it had 430 RC residents circa 1850, per Fényes Elek (https://www.arcanum.hu/hu/online-kiadvanyok/Lexikonok-magyar...), plus RC residents of Jesztreb (74), Oroszvólya (10), Obrucsnó (22), Csircs (65), and probably Gyurkó (81). I think 682 people can be expected to have more than 10 children among them in a year.

I wonder if there were multiple birth registers -- one per officiant? -- but only the one survived? Either that, or a significant portion of the village had some sort of beef against the priest and boycotted him? I'd think there'd be some sort of record of either of these scenarios, though, and I don't see anything in the images on FS.

Re: Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Posted: 1571244602000
Classification: Query
Yes, I would also think there would be some sort of a record of either scenario happening.

There does not appear to be any mention or signification of multiple registers in the images on FS, but multiple registers seems to be the best explanation...

I am not sure if the current church in L'ubotin is still part of the original church, but If there were multiple registers that still existed, do you think they would be stored in that church?

Or, is there anyone that could be contacted that might know more about the parish records? Maybe a diocese branch or the church itself?

Re: Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Posted: 1572049125000
Classification: Query
Do you think that missing records could be in an archive of some sort? I am not sure how archives work in Slovakia, but would there be anyway of figuring out what deanery and/or diocese the parish in L'ubotin belonged to?

Re: Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Posted: 1572111248000
Classification: Query
I can tell you all about the applicable jurisdictions in the 1800s, but I'm out of my depth when it comes to modern Slovakian arrangements.

Re: Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Posted: 1572472026000
Classification: Query
Any info you have during the 1800s would probably be most useful, maybe it could help me pinpoint more of the records in some archive according to the jurisdictions of the time...

Re: Missing information in the parish records of L'ubotin?

Posted: 1572485665000
Classification: Query
Ok, so, Lubotin and jurisdictions.

The county was already Sáros ("muddy") in the 1400s, and while later rearrangements and regularizations doubtless moved a few boundaries, they did not affect Lubotin. The county seat was Eperjes (Prešov).

Hungarian counties were divided into administrative units called _járás_, which is literally "walking", so I like to translate it as "circuit", but it's more often termed "district". They were important in the day-to-day operations of government, but the boundaries and names changed too often for people to keep track, and they seldom affect archival recordkeeping. Lubotin was in the Felső Tárcza járás in all of the gazetteers that I checked.

But all this is only marginally relevant to vital records, because prior to the start of civil registration (Oct. 1, 1895), they were the responsibility of churches.

Ecclesiastic jurisdictions in Hungary basically consisted of local churches which reported to a bishop (or equivalent). If a village did not have a church of the right denomination for some of its residents, the relevant bishop assigned it to a nearby village that did. (Dvorzsák assembled his 1877 gazetteer with the primary purpose of identifying such assignments of recording location.)

Lubotin had a Roman Catholic church, and most of its residents were Roman Catholic. Greek Catholics were recorded in Pusztamező, and Jewish residents in Csircs. The relevant Roman Catholic bishopric was in Kassa (Košice), and the Greek Catholic one was in Eperjes. (Jewish administration was the exception; it did not really have any sort of central body.)

The gazetteers identify a few other details of administrativia. For example, in 1892 the courthouse was in Eperjes, the circuit judge and tax office were in Kisszeben (Sabinov), the train station was labeled "Lubotin-Lublófürdő", and the nearest telegraph office was in Orló.

The other detail in the gazetteers is the military assignments: draft district 67, home-guard regiment IX, militia circuit 29. (These can be relevant to tracking down information about WWI soldiers, but it all gets too confusing for me.)
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