Search for content in message boards

old st marcus in st. louis

old st marcus in st. louis

holly (View posts)
Posted: 1163192428000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1164527475000
Surnames: winner
I believe there is still a St. Marcus Church in St. Louis. You might contact them. I still have some ancestors in Old St. Marcus, too.

Re: old st marcus in st. louis

Charlie (View posts)
Posted: 1163205164000
Classification: Query
All remains were supoosed to be moved to the New St. Marcus cemetery, several blocks farther south on Gravois, from the old St Marcus Cemetery.
Later it was stated that not all remains were moved and some tombstones were made into a wall at what is now a city park.

Re: old st marcus in st. louis

Holly (View posts)
Posted: 1163433644000
Classification: Query
Surnames: Winner, von Dreele, Gruenewald
I didn't realize that they were going to move the remains to New St. Marcus.; nobody ever told us anything like that. Before they made the cemetery into a park we visited Old St. Marcus and took away most of our family headstones. I remember the city said it was making remaining headstones into a wall. Our plot, like others, had a stone enclosure with steps that read "Our Home." I believe this referred to the custom of visiting the gravesites every Sunday and tending them. Since the family took care of the graves, there was no perpetual care, at least not for many of the graves. I think that's how the city was able to turn the cemetery into a park. My family members buried there are my great-grandfather, Hermann Winner, his second-to-last wife, Elisabeth, and seven children who died all at once, apparently in some epidemic in St. Louis, probably in the 1870s.

Re: Winner/Wenner family in St. Louis

Bob Buecher (View posts)
Posted: 1164166399000
Classification: Query
Is this the same Hermann Heinrich Wenner (born 1812) who was married in St. Louis on 10 March 1848 to Catharina Duermann (born 1818) ?

Re: Winner/Wenner family in St. Louis

Holly Hildebrand (View posts)
Posted: 1164210482000
Classification: Query
Surnames: Winner, Von Dreele, Mannecke
No, my ancestor is Johann Hermann Winner (always known by Hermann), who was born in the Hannover, Germany, area in 1827. I think he immigrated to the US in 1846. He died in 1901. His only surviving child was my grandfather, Albert A. Winner. He had seven other children who died at the same, apparently in some edidemic in St. Louis. As for his wives, he apparently had three or four; he married my great-grandmother, Lizzie Mannecke Buerk, in 1892 or 1893. She died in 1941. My father did some research into this family and discovered that Hermann changed his name from Von Dreele to Winner before he left Germany. Do you know anything about that? Hermann is buried in Old St. Marcus in St. Louis (now a park) with his penultimate wife, Elisabeth, and seven children.

Re: Winner/Wenner family in St. Louis

Posted: 1368453601000
Classification: Query
Surnames: Hellmich, Mannecke, Winner
Holly, I don't know if you are still checking in with Ancestry, but I am delighted to read your post. My great-grandmother was Minnie Mannecke Hellmich--sister of Elizabeth Mannecke Winner. We actually were hoping to connect with Florence Hildebrand--your mother?--last summer, only to learn of her passing. I am Kathy Chapell; you can check the Hellmich tree for more info, although I still have much work to do. My grandmother was Minnie's (Wilhemina) daughter, Adela Hellmich Gabriel. My sibs and I are the only descendents of that line. I would love to connect with you.

Re: Winner/Wenner family in St. Louis

Posted: 1368461321000
Classification: Query
Dear Kathy,
It's so great to hear from you! Yes, Florence Hildebrand was my mother. Her grandmother was Lizzie Winner, whose real name, it turns out, was Elise. She's listed as Elizabeth in some census records, and Mom's middle name was even Elizabeth, because her parents thought that was Lizzie Winner's real name. Then, later, she told them it wasn't!

Mom's father, Albert Winner, was Adela's first cousin. Lizzie had another, older son, Harry Buerk, by an Illinois man. There are descedants of that marriage, in Illinois.

My Mom knew Adela (called Della). Adela had three siblings, all with "A" names -- Alvin, Arthur, and Alice.

ALVIN--Married late in life, to a French teacher. They had a daughter, still living, Aldred Hellmich, who is in her early 70s. She lives in Webster Groves, Mo. She doesn't have any children.

ARTHUR--Died, I think, in the early 1970s. Might have been his wife, though. Arthur had two children, Raymond, and Dorothy. Raymond was a lawyer with one son, Stephen ( I think that's his name). Stephen is still alive. Dorothy was my Mom's age. She had a mental illness and died after her parents did.

ALICE--Taught for years in the St. Louis Public Schools. Never married and didn't want Alvin to marry. When he did, she boycotted the wedding, and didn't talk to Alvin for decades. She is buried in Valhalla Cemetery in St. Louis County.

Besides Lizzie, Minnie had another sister, Louisa. Both of them married two brothers, the Hellmichs. Louisa's children were Lillian, Eleanor and Bill. None of them married (although Eleanor was engaged) or had children. Bill died young of TB. They are buried in St. John's Cemetery, St. Cyr and Bellefontaine road in St. Louis County.

We are all descendants of Heinrich (Henry) and Johanne Mannecke, who came to the U.S. from Germany. (Also buried in St. John's.) There is a male line of Manneckes that I've been in contact with. The great-grandson of William Albert Mannecke lives near San Antonio. He's in his early 60s. There are other Manneckes descended from Henry and Johanne Mannecke. They're a little hard to sort out, because down through the generations, they've been called, interchangeably, William Henry or Henry William. Most of them are in Missouri, though.

Now here are some questions:
Is Keith Gabriel your brother? I met him when wwe both went to the University of Illinois. I was there in 1973-74. (I think he said he was from Peoria.)
Lillian and Eleanor talked a lot about Bob Gabriel. Is he your Dad? He used to come to Lillian and Eleanor's house near ours in St. Louis County and mow their grass. Did he go to Washington U? Was Rosemary Gabriel your aunt or great-aunt? From Bunker Hill? Didn't she have a sister? Did Adela died around June 1963? Was there a tornado around that time to? My younger brother was born then, and I think I remember Mom saying something about Della's death.

Write back soon!

Holly Hildebrand

Great-granddaughter of Lizzie Mannecke Winner

Re: Winner/Wenner family in St. Louis

Posted: 1368538416000
Classification: Query
Holly, so fun to hear back so soon! May I ask for your email address? It might be easier for us to communicate directly thru email, rather than via this board. My email is

I am heading out soon this morning for work--I currently am the Music Director at Covenant Presbyterian Church in St. Louis--and will have more time to write later today. Where do you live? It would be fun to meet at some point. I am good friends with Aldred Hellmich; we just had lunch this past Thursday. She'll be delighted to hear that you and I are putting some puzzle pieces together. She and I have visited St. John's cemetery and found the various headstones.

Let me give you a quick update on some names and connections, and then I can do more later.

William F. Hellmich was married to Wilhemina (Minnie or Minna) Mannecke. Their children were: Lillian, Adela (Della, my grandmother), Bill (William W.), and Eleanore. Of those, only my grandmother married. Her husband was Arthur Gabriel, and their children were Dorris (d.2009), Robert, my dad (Bob, d. 2008), and Rosemary (d. 2007).

Frederick Hellmich was married to Louisa Mannecke. Their children were Arthur, Alvin, and Alice. All are deceased. I can get dates at a later time. Aldred is Alvin's only child. She is retired and still living in her parents' house in Webster--a delightful lady, active and interested in everything.

At some point there was a feud/argument of some kind between William and Frederick, and for a time Fred changed the spelling of his name to have only one "l". We don't know the reason for the division, but Aldred was not even aware that her grandfather (Fred) HAD a brother named William. William took his own life in 1908; Minna remained a widow until the end of her life. Bill died in St. Louis of TB in 1933. The house where he, Lillian, and Eleanore lived is still there, although they sold it and moved to the house near your mother in the late 1950's, or maybe 1960 or '61. Neither sister married. Eleanore died in 1972, and Lillian in 1982.

My dad's sisters, Dorris and Rosemary, remained single, as well.

Keith IS my brother; he is the oldest, and I am next; we also have two younger sisters, Karen and Kris--they both live in North Carolina. Karen is single and is a hospice nurse, and Kris is married to a pastor; she is also a nurse and has three children. Keith is a surgeon in Springfield, IL, and is married with two kids.

Wow, I ended up with quite a long message here. It will be good to connect with you and share stories, history, etc. I am curious whether your mother or grandparents ever shared stories with you regarding the family rift, the history of the Hellmich's and Mannecke's settling in St. Louis, their lives before coming to America.


Re: Winner/Wenner family in St. Louis

Posted: 1368545361000
Classification: Query
Dear Kathy,

Sure, you can have my email, cousin! You can reach me at or

I didn't realize your grandmother Della was the sister of Lillian and Eleanore. I remember Lillian and Eleanore referring to Bob as their nephew, but then I found a census record with Adela living with all the other "A" children, so I thought they were siblings and that Lillian and Eleanore were just calling Bob their nephew.

The house you're talking about, where they lived, was on Highland Avenue. My mother always thought that my grandfather Albert Winner (Lizzie's son) helped buy it for them. They used to stay with Lizzie and Albert for long periods of time at Lizzie's house on Holly Avenue. She had that house built after her husband, Hermann, died in 1901. Hermann was a wealthy businessman, about 35 years older than Lizzie, and he had a Teamsters business and general merchancise store on Blair and Madison. That's where my Grandpa Winner was born. When Hermann died, Lizzie wanted to move to a better neighborhood, for Grandpa's sake, so she had the house on Holly built. She lived there until she died on June 6, 1941. Then Grandpa and my Grandpa moved there and lived there for a number of years.

Like her husband, Lizzie's father was a teamster, and they lived in the same neighborhood. The Manneckes and Hermann were from the Hannover area of Germany. Before he left Germany, Hermann changed his last name to Winner from von Dreele; we don't know why. He left in 1847, and there was a lot of political upheaval in Europe around then.

We lived on Claudine Drive in Spanish Lake beginning in 1959. Lillian and Eleanore must have moved there about 1960 or 1961. They lived in Fontaine Estates, just off Bellefontaine Road. Their house is the second on the right as you turn into the subdivision.

I heard of the rift between the Hellmichs and the dropping of the "l" but I don't know why; I'm not sure my family knew either. But I know of the other feud -- Alvin was a teacher, and when he was about 40 he wanted to marry a French teacher. That is Aldred's mother. Alice became furious, said she and Alvin had made a pact never to marry and to instead take care of their parents, but Alvin got married anyway. Lizzie and Grandpa were the only family members to attend the wedding; Lillian and Eleanore were across the street, hiding behind bushes, watching what was going on! Years ago, my Mother called Aldred and explained their relationship, and Aldred said she had never heard of any other Hellmichs! After that she and Mom talked some more and she sent Mom Christmas letters every years.

Another Alice story -- she had a dog she was crazy about, and when it got sick, she pushed it around in a baby stroller. When it died, she had him laid out in her parlor. Supposedly she said to my grandfather, "Are you going to see the dog, Albert?" He said, "No."

Well, a bit about me. I've lived in the Houston area since January 1984. I worked at the St. Louis Globe-Democrat, and when it was folding, I took a newspaper job down here. I'm a technical writer now.

I have two brothers -- Brad and Lance Hildebrand, both still in St. Louis. Perhaps you've heard them on the radio. Brad used to be on the original KSLQ and now owns its reincarnation in Washington, Mo. Lance is the traffic reporter for KY98. Brad is the only one with kids -- three boys and a girl, Amanda, who is in law school at St. Louis U.

I'm eager to hear more from you on email!

Holly Hildebrand
per page

Find a board about a specific topic