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Wenban Origins

Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225603345000
Classification: Query
Ok , we have firmly established the ancestry of the Wenban line, now I would like to pose a bigger question. We have traced back all the Wenban ancestry to Wenbans (Wenbourns) Farm and when it was named and by whom. c 1320 History Wenbams [als Wenbourne] Ref.Wace's Wadhurst
"(The property)….Wenban is named in Edward II's time as belonging to the Earl of Richmond and Duke of Brittany - lords of the Rape of Hastings, in Manor of Bibleham (who's name just happened to be John)..............It then became the property of the family of Whitfield, who gave it the name of Wenbans, when Robert Whitfield married Kathleen, widow of Wenborne of Wenbans, and settled there..

So Wenborne already owned it in late 1200 early 1300 when it was named. and the original name came from the fact it was a Saxon Chiefttains Village by the Stream.(Wenna Burn) Then in Early 1300's the name John de Wenbourn , Hugh de Waneborn, Lawence de Wanebourn (de.. of Wenbans)all of this around the time it was named by (John de Bretgne)the Earl of Richmond. So what was the connection? and continuing conection with the Royals?
Early Royal hunting lodge? right through to Edward the III with his escapades with Wallis Simpson? Hmmm I wonder what the connection was?
Regards
Myles

Re: Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225794661000
Classification: Query
When surnames started to become set in about the 13th century, they were based on one of 4 things - the father's name (eg Johnson or Thompson), an occupation (eg Smith or Thatcher), a nickname (eg Short, Black) or a location.

The location can indicate a village or town that a person came from (usually indicates that they have moved away from there), (e.g. Mansfield, Ticehurst), or describe the area within the village where they lived (E.g. Moore, Meadows), or in the case of Wenban/Wenbourne indicate the name of the property where they lived.

So, the cronology would be something like this.

Once upon a time a Saxon named Waenna lived by a stream, and perhaps "owned" the land around that stream, hence it became known as Waenna's Bourne. The name stuck and a later farmhouse (and the associated farm) became knowns as Waneburn and eventually Wenbornes. Later the people living there became known by the fact that they lived there (such as Gilbert de Waneburn and Hugo de Waneburn who paid tax in 1295. In 1328 Gilbert is called Gilbert de Weneburn and by 1370 (at least) the "de" meaning "of" gets dropped, and we find Simon Weneborne, Richard Weneborne and Walter Weneborne, and by 1389 we find John Wenbourne. In 1426 we specifically get "John Wenborne of Wadhurst".

So the name existed as a surname before Robert Whitfield came to Wadhurst, which is generally beleived to have been about the end of the 15th Century. I know that Alfred Wace, in his book "The History of Wadhurst" says that Whitfield named the property Wenbans, but I believe this to be untrue, as we have seen the name was in existence before his ownership of the property. I also beleive it was owned before him by "Wenborne of Wenbans", the first husband of Kathleen, and that it was through her that he inherited the property.

Regards

Jenny

Re: Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225803606000
Classification: Query
Thanks for that Jenny. that ties in with what I also believe.
The Grey area is back further when the property was in the ownership of Jean de Bretagne (1266-1334) in the early 1300's around the time when we get the first mentions of the de Waneburns/Weneburns. Jean was the second surviving son of John II, Duke of Brittany and his wife Beatrice of England, thus being a grandson of Henry III of England and nephew of Edward I of England. It is also believed that the property was used by King John as a hunting lodge late 1100's. So were the de Waneburns just living at the property or in the employ of Jean? This seems unlikely as the de Waneburns are mentioned in the tax lists as landowners so they must of somehow acquired the property ,late 1200's.
How did Jean de Bretagne come to own the property and then the big question of how the original Wenban's came to hold this substantial property?
regards
Myles

Re: Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225830938000
Classification: Query
I have seen cases where people have owned certain lands and rented others, so it is POSSIBLE that the Waneburns were living there as tenants, but I agree that it seems more likely that they were land holders.

Unfortunately, I think that the land-holding records are probably located in an archive in England (if, indeed, they still exist at all), so the likes of you and I (located, as we are, on the opposite side of the world) are unlikely to have the opportunity to find those records. Even if I could find them it wouldn't do me any good as they would be written in Latin, and I can't read Latin!

Jenny

Re: Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225834174000
Classification: Query
I think the records are in Battle Abby, but you are right they are probably written in Latin. Because of the fact that the property was previously owned by Jean de Bretagne, and our de Wanebournes only started to appear about the time the property changed hands, It looks like we are back as far as we can go with the "Wenban/Wenebourn name as prior to that they would have been known by a different name.
Myles

Re: Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225881719000
Classification: Query
Hi !

The records ARE in Battle Abbey as the focal point for the retention of records of that area of England. They are in Old Latin, not just Latin, of which there are about five scholars in the UK or Europe even who understand it and will charge the earth to decipher such documents.

Re: Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225881789000
Classification: Query
Again, w're back to OLD Latin and my earlier comments about those who understand it !

Peter

Re: Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225882397000
Classification: Query
Hi !

You have to understand that this is not a 'substantial property'of consequenmce in itself. It was the property of a Wealden ironfounder, Wenban, and later became a farmhouse with adjoining barns when one of his daughters married the neighbouring farmer. He only had daughters and that is how the property passed from Wenban ownership. The house itself is quite compact and none of the rooms are large. In fact, its not a very convenient house to live in. The entrance was a cow byre. A corridor, also once a cow byre, now connects to the big barn which is typical of such barns in UK farms. We have several round us here in Suffolk any of them converted into houses now. A large garage with chauffeur's flat abouve was built opposite the house when it became a gentleman farmer's residence (a retired naval commander). He built a specialist pig rearing unit in the grounds.

I have some other explanatory things to say in reply to later messages posted.

Peter

Re: Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225882491000
Classification: Query
I'd agree with most of what you say here in this balanced review

Peter

Re: Wenban Origins

Posted: 1225883700000
Classification: Query
Hi !

I think that in all of this one should be aware that adjoning Wenbans to the south is what was a substantial property, Wadhurst Park. This was the focus of much high level social activity throughout its life and the focus for hunting parties, as Sussex offered great hunting country,great balls etc., etc., You can get its history on a web site. It is therefore highly likely that Wenbans was used as a hunting lodge at time, if only to get the men out of the women's way in Wadhust Park, in the hunting expeditions. This however, does not elevate Wenbans to more than a convenient place to be based at for a short few days hunting.

Wadhust Park is now a public place and parkland for the public to enjoy.

Peter
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