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John Lietz

John Lietz

Posted: 1059078700000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1062946553000
Surnames: Lietz
I need to get the birth certificate for John Lietz, born May 14, 1840 in Germany/Prussia. I suspect he was from the Posen region, according to one newspaper obituary. How do I go about getting it? Please let me know.

John Leitz - Immigrated 1865 on Ship Saxonia

Posted: 1059111316000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1076122865000
Hi Nicole,

I see and read some of your other postings on John Leitz (Leetz) on the Fond Du Lac board, and am not related. Just trying to help and caught my eye since my KRUSE family came from Germany in 1869, some went to Chicago and some to Wisconsin in Shawano County. Many German immigrants settled in the Great Lakes Region.

Anyway, the census immigration dates you had showed anywhere from 1865 to 1870, and it looks like John came alone, as his wife was a different date.

I did a look up in my Germans To America (GTA) CD and see a John Leitz with the right age. He came by himself.

John Leitz, age 26, arrived 10 July 1865, origan of Germany,
to U.S., port of embarkation, Hamburg and Southhampton,
ships name: Saxonia, occupation merchant, ship captains
name: E. Meier. The GTA listing is the "arrival passenger list" at New York port.

If this is the right guy, then with this info you could order the Hamburg Passenger ship departure listing from you FHC and this should show the town in Germany. Then from the town you could order the church records that serve the town. There is no "birth certificates" for that time period in Germany, just the church records of births and christenings.

Let me know if you need any help ordering this microfilm. I have done this many times with great success. This is exactly how I found my Kruse family.

A question, why do you think he came from the Posen area? Have you any luck with his naturalization records? Apparently the application for naturalization (intent) should have info on origan and immigration.

My Website: Kruse Family from Germany
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fkruse/


Leitz - 1870 Census - Rosendale, Fond Du Lac, WI

Posted: 1059113917000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1076122865000
I see you were also looking for the 1870 census of John Leitz and Henrietta.

I went through the 36 pages of the 1870 census for Rosendale, Wisconsin and the closest ones I see are:

Frederick Lutze, age 31, Prussia
Henrietta, 29, Prussia
Bertha, 3, Wisconsin
Emma, 6/12 months old, Wisconsin

Re: Leitz - 1870 Census - Rosendale, Fond Du Lac, WI

Posted: 1059142534000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1062946553000
Surnames: Leitz, Lietz
Thank you for your reply.

HMMM. That's curious. I don't know why they don't appear in the 1870 census. I have a copy of their deed from 1866, which was later probated in 1928. They are in the 1875 state census (and in the subsequent federal and state census rolls). I wonder if they were not home when the census taker came around? Could that be a possibility?

Re: John Leitz - Immigrated 1865 on Ship Saxonia

Posted: 1059143761000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1062946553000
Surnames: Leitz, Lietz
Thank you so much for your lengthy, and informative, response. Your insight is helpful.

I believe that our ancestor came from the Posen area because of the obituary that ran on him. Of course, the obituary is only as good as the source providing the information, but I don't have much else to go on! From the 1880 census, he was listed as being from Prussia. Unfortunately the 1875 state census does not list either his country of origin or his immigration/naturalization date. Like I said in my previous message, he purchased his land in 1866 -- I do know this for sure! His death certificate did not list his parents, and simply listed Germany as his country of origin.

The John Leitz you have found appears to be of the same age as our ancestor, although I had believed that his wife came with him and that he had some children with him as well (the 1880 census lists some of his children as having been born in Prussia). The reference librarian up in Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin, found the same information you have. I have been able to order the microfilm (after a minor hiccup) from the FHC, and hope that it will arrive within the next 3 weeks. If this is not him, I'm not exactly sure how to go about finding when, how and from where he came.

Thank you for the information on the birth records in Germany. The town data would be on the passenger ship list, but here's a quick question: how would I know from which church to order the birth records? I would think that there would be multiple churches in each town. I suppose I could just keep going until I hit the right one.

As far as the immigration/naturalization is concerned, that's another gray area for me as I've never researched these records before. I sent a request to the Fond du Lac county library who does this research for free (this is the county in which he bought his property); however, they didn't find anyone with the various spellings of the last name in that county. They did find an individual in the county just to the north, but the nationality is listed as Austria, and I fear that it's not the one and the same person. In addition, the immigration year is pretty far off. If I don't know the port that he came to, or if he got his naturalization/immigration paperwork elsewhere, how would I track him down? I sorely need some sort of index to the immigration/naturalization records, but I don't believe there's one out there.

In other words, if the FHC passenger list turns out to NOT be my guy, I don't know where to turn to next. Do you have any ideas? Or have I hit the proverbial brick wall?

Johann Friedrich Leitz Family - Rosendale, Wisconsin

Posted: 1059197895000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1076122865000
I am fairly certain the 1870 census in Rosendale showing Frederick Lutze (probably really screwed up by the census taker) is the right guy with family. Plus this fits with other info and helps to answer lots of your questions. Another reason I think this Frederick in 1870 is your John Lietz is because in the 1910 census, John is listed as John F. Lietz.

In my experience in German records, normally they have 2 or 3 first names, and the GTA listing shows Joh. which normally is short for Johann. So I think his full German name would be Johann Friedrich Leitz, or Americanized to John Frederick Lietz.

This 1870 census also shows 2 kids, Bertha and Emma, and both born in Wisconsin, probably Rosendale. The 1880 census is most likely in error, showing the first 5 kids born in Prussia, and they should all be born in Rosendale, Wisconsin or nearby.

This makes sense when you look at the other info in the other census showing marriage in 1865 and the first born Emma or Bertha born in 1866 in Wisconsin. Also John Lietz, b. Oct 1869 shows born in Wisconsin in the 1900, 1910, and 1920 censuses, which proves more of the error of the 1880 census showing John born in Prussia.

So my best guess is John Leitz met and married his wife, Henrietta in 1865, or shortly after John arrived in 1865 in Rosendale. John then purchased land in 1866 according to your records.

The 1900 census shows immigration in 1865, the 1910 census shows imm. in 1864 (hard to read) and Hattie in 1859, and the 1920 shows imm in 1870. The census is usually in error with these immigration dates, but the 1865 matches with the one Joh. Leitz I have in the GTA, arriving in 10 July 1865 on the ship Saxonia. The 1920 census shows naturalized in 1875 so this looks appropriate because it takes about 10 years.

On the microfilm, which one did you order?

The one I would order is the Hamburg Passenger Arrival, direct list, film number 0472896, Bd. 19 for 1865; or the name index, film 0884672 for names KATZ, Samuel to LEWIN, And.

Usually they are on the direct listing, however if he is not on the direct listings then try the indirect list.

These films numbers are from:
http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/emig/ham_pass.html#dirlist

The Arrival Passenger list at NY usually does not have any info on the town in Germany, and this is where the Germans To America series gets its info. However the Hamburg Passenger Departure Listings normally show the town in Germany. From this you can order the parish that serves the town. The parish can normally be found fairly easily through the online info at the Morman site in the Family History Catalog, or at this German site under Locations:

http://www.mfpev.de/

Looks like your in for some fun and excitting research!

Correction on Hamburg Passenger Departure List

Posted: 1059224309000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1076122865000
I said in my previous message "The one I would order is the Hamburg Passenger Arrival, direct list, film number 0472896, Bd. 19 for 1865; or the name index, film 0884672 for names KATZ, Samuel to LEWIN, And."

I meant the Hamburg Passenger "Departure" Listing (Manifest) at Hamburg, not the "Arrival List", but same FHC numbers.


Re: Johann Friedrich Leitz Family - Rosendale, Wisconsin

Posted: 1059315544000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1062946553000
Surnames: Lietz, Leitz
Thanks (again) for your lengthy reply. You have connected some "dots" that I overlooked -- I usually pride myself on seeing all the details!

One of my longstanding problems with researching this family is that there were 3 John Lietzs living in the same county during the same time period. Two of the "Johns" were born in 1840, furthering the difficulty in the research. I have ascertained (recently) that two of these "Johns" were first cousins. Still don't know if the third was related, but would have to imagine that he probably is somehow.

Could you please tell me what page that Frederick Lutze shows up? I have (electronically) pages 3, 29, and 30, but not the page for Frederick Lutze that you are referring to. I don't currently have access to the 1870 census via ancestry.com, and will have to look up the page at the local FHC. I totally missed the middle name initial "F" from the 1910 census. Great catch!

You indicate that the 1870 census shows 2 kids: Bertha and Emma. I have never seen another reference to a sibling named Bertha -- the probate papers to the Lietz farm land in Wisconsin from 1928 list all of the children, dead and alive, and doesn't list a Bertha. Possibly another error by the census taker? I guess (perhaps) another family member's child could have been living with them at the time, or something similar like that.

I appreciate the commentary about the immigration/naturalization. I'm still having difficulty pinpointing the paperwork regarding this process -- perhaps he filed it under Frederick Lietz? The county contact stated that he did not have a John Lietz (or any variation) for the time period 1865 - 1875, other than the John Lietz for the county to the north, but from Austria.

I ordered the Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at New York, NY, June 20 - July 17, 1865, #0175609. I got this number from a web site that corresponded the NARA film numbers to the FHC film numbers (hoping that it's accurate). I will go in this week and order the Hamburg Passenger Arrival list, as it appears that it may have more information.

Thanks for providing the information regarding locating the town and parish listings. I'm very excited to think that I can (possibly) finally get to that point!

Again, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your assistance.

Nicole

Re: Correction on Hamburg Passenger Departure List

Posted: 1059316252000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1062946553000
Got the message . . . thanks for helping make sure I get the right film!

Re: John Leitz - Immigrated 1865 on Ship Saxonia

Posted: 1059942766000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1161820062000
Surnames: Leitz
Your query stated, "I sorely need some sort of index to the immigration/naturalization records, but I don't believe there's one out there." You are probably right!
However, the NARA website has some guidelines for searching for these records. They MAY be of help to you. Each state/county has its own system.
Some county clerk's offices and/or county court clerk's keep the original logbooks that recorded such court actions in their offices. (Whether or not they will allow you to search them is another story. I ran into one situation where the clerk's offices are separated from the public by locked doors. You have to ask the employees to search the books for you, and of course, there is a charge. So much for the "Freedom of Information" deal.)
One county I searched in NYS allowed me to search the books, IF I knew certain details. Fortunately, the County Historian had already prepared me with the necessary information, and I was able to find the "Declaration of Intent" to file for naturalization. I have yet to run down the location of the actual naturalization document, although the 1900 and 1910 censuses state that my ancestor was naturalized.
Good luck with your search!
Pat
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