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K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364396011000
Classification: Query
There's been a lot of talk about the differences in the North Sea and North Atlantic populations. My paper trail about 75% German and 25% other (likely English, Irish, Scottish in this cluster). My other is an adopted grandmother.

Anyways, I read somewhere last night that in general, those with higher North Sea than North Atlantic percentages in their K35 readout are Germanic. Those with more North Atlantic than North Sea are more Celtic. People with singular or combined Germanic/Scandinavian/British Isles ancestry will have fairly high percentages of both North Atlantic and North Sea, making it impossible for me to tell if I have 100% German or 75% German and 25% British Isles.

I sent my results to Dr. McDonald over the weekend and he said my results appear German but they are within the range of 25% nominal British. I understand this is because the populations are genetically quite similar, particularly with Scandinavian influence in both populations.

My question is this: since DNA analysis tests for distant ancestry using current population samples, how can we be sure of anything?

If modern-day Germany and modern-day British Isles both consist of people who show Scandinavian AND Celtic DNA (thanks to migration movements), am I oversimplifying it to say there is likely no way to really separate the populations? I understand Norman influence in parts of the British Isles, Eastern European influence in parts of Germany, etc, but it seems to be that we're applying long-ago genetic tracing to modern populations. I feel like we're grasping at straws to an extent, and only a person's confirmed paper trail can solve these things.

Am I missing something huge, or does this make sense to anyone?

Re: K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364399098000
Classification: Query
No, I don't think you're missing anything. Fine distinctions within Europe, in particular the areas you're discussing, is going to be very difficult. It was my first thought when I received my little pie chart with 64% Scandinavian and 18% British Isles.

My Eurogenes K35 analysis comes back almost a totally even mix North Atlantic and North Sea with a healthy mix around Europe, but I'm not going to take distinctions among the UK Scandinavia and northern Germany too seriously.

For me it's just a curiosity and it is a little interesting to see who I'm distantly related to, at least generally, but I'm really in this for the matches.

Matt

Re: K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364400805000
Classification: Query
Thanks, Matt. I'm glad you could confirm my understanding. For what it's worth, my Ancestry DNA pie chart was 56% Scandinavian, 34% Central European, and 10% Uncertain.

My Eurogenes K35 analysis came back with about 20% North Sea, about 18% Iberian, and about 13% North Atlantic as my three highest matches.

It is most definitely a little interesting but not reliable in the long run. I've found some really neat matches that seem to indicate my paper trail (grandmother of English/Irish/Scottish ancestry), but I wished I could somehow trust my K35 to point me down the right path as confirmation.

It seems so much of Europe is really difficult to tell apart. Heck, even those of us with high Iberian % but no known Spanish ancestry are left wondering how that works. I've read that it might suggest Ice Age movement into the Iberian peninsula from S/SW Germany (an area of my confirmed ancestry). Then again, I believe the population referred to as "Black Irish" (dark-haired, dark-eyed) are descendants of Spanish raiders/sailors. Therein lies the rub: Europe is too compact and too old for an American like me to reach any conclusion.

Re: K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364406032000
Classification: Query
I agree. In Ancestry I was 64% Scandinavian, 18% British Isles, 18% Southern Europe. At Eurogenes it was a laundry list:

16.86% North_Atlantic
16.03% North_Sea
13.78% French
13.32% Iberian
9.42% Central_Euro
7.29% Fennoscandian
6.39% Italian
5.05% East_Central_Euro
4.36% Eastern_Euro
2.95% Volga-Ural
2.66% North_Caucasian
1.73% Basque

and I am also wondering where my Iberian and French came from, but you're right. It's a small place with a lot of migration and because I look mostly Irish, Scotch-Irish and German for the last 2-300 years on paper doesn't mean the rest of Europe should be excluded.

The most striking example of Ancestry's failure on this one was my father. They claimed 94% Scandinavian, but it came back in Eurogenes obviously similar to mine, but with quite a bit less French which I might attribute to a Swiss 2nd great-grandmother on my mother's side. I'm just glad that this other tool is available.

Matt

Re: K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364412957000
Classification: Query
Ha, yes. All of the information is really confusing, but I especially do not trust Ancestry's results as far as BGA is concerned. I'm not going to beat the dead Scandinavian horse further, but yes, no way to tell.

My percentages were similar to yours in many populations...about 10% Central Euro, about 8% Fennoscandian, about 7% Italian, lesser amounts of East_Central Euro, Eastern Euro, Volga-Ural, North Caucasian. Very interesting. We differed with our French percentages, mine was closer to 4% than 14%.

Seeing as how you and I both have a good amount of North Atlantic & North Sea, it would be really nice to discover more about the relationship between those populations.

If anyone reading this has results based on one/both parents native to Germany or the UK, I'd be really curious to see what you have.

Re: K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364415465000
Classification: Query
This is a really good question, North Atlantic vs North Sea. I guess my results must suggest British ancestry, at 98% . .
North Atlantic 19.09
North Sea 14.9
Iberian 13.87
Fennoscandian 13.37
French 10.2
Italian 9.67
E. Central Euro 6.44
C. Euro 5.18
East Balkan 3.8
Basque 1.9
West Caucasian 0.75
E. Euro 0.58
N. Caucasian 0.18
S. Central Asian0.02
West Med 0.01
Due to the higher percentage of North Atlantic. Perhaps the Fennoscandian and Iberian at 13% cancel each other out, I don't know. However, after running the results through DIYDodecad Oracle I understand Ancestry's prediction - have you tried that? Now if I could only figure out how to run the D-statistics to see if the smaller percentages were 'real' or 'noise' I would really be getting somewhere.

Re: K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364440121000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1364440162000
Hi Sarah,

I followed the steps in another thread of this forum to run my AncestryDNA raw data through an R program. I got my results in Eurogenes K36 and DV3 formats.

The broader analysis (DV3) was:
46.66% West_European
25.46% Mediterranean
17.56% East_European
7.93% West_Asian
(all others < 1.0%)

The more precise analysis (K36) was:
19.53% North_Sea
17.99% Iberian
12.18% North_Atlantic
10.87% Eastern_Euro
8.06% Fennoscandian
7.83% East_Central_Euro
6.57% Central_Euro
6.24% Italian
4.35% West_Med
3.60% French
1.55% Volga-Ural
0.57% North_Caucasian
0.26% South_Central_Asian
0.21% Armenian
0.14% East_Med
0.05% East_Balkan

When you say Dodecad Oracle, are you referring to something other than these two?

Re: K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364440475000
Classification: Query
yes, it's something else. It's pretty interesting. You can find more here: http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/07/dodecad-oracle-v1.html

Re: K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364440731000
Classification: Query
I'm just reading about it now - it sounds a bit like the information Dr. McDonald provided! Very interesting, thank you for sharing.

Re: K35 - North Sea vs North Atlantic

Posted: 1364441533000
Classification: Query
My known maternal ancestry is German and my known paternal ancestry is Irish, Welsh and Dutch. Here are my results from AncestryDNA and Eurogenes K36 (it is 36, right?):

AncestryDNA

Scandinavian 48%
Central European 45%
Uncertain 7%

Eurogenes K36

Iberian 18.62%
North Sea 15.70%
French 9.74%
North Atlantic 9.64%
Central European 9.47%
Fennoscandian 9.03%
Italian 8.10%
East Central European 6.76%
East Balkan 4.35%
Basque 2.45%
South Central Asian 1.88%
West Caucasian 1.63%
North Caucasian 1.03%
Armenian 0.98%
West Med 0.40%
Eastern European 0.21%
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