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John Wenborne b.1663

John Wenborne b.1663

Posted: 1148964502000
Classification: Query
Surnames: Wenborne
Looking for information about both John and his wife Ann. Their son, Thomas, was born in 1689 and I have no further information about either John or Ann.

Re: John Wenborne b.1663

Peter Wenban (View posts)
Posted: 1149067775000
Classification: Query
The info I have from my uncle and great uncle's records is very thin on John (1663) and Thomas(1689) who was buried in 1745 in Salehurst or wife Mary. My own line is descended from their second son Thomas (1719) who married Susanna Veness (very exotic for those times) in 1745. The marriage of their second son Thomas to Mary in 1772 was the first recorded spelling of the name as WENBAN. Previously spelling was various as phonetic and one spelt as one heard !

Regards,

peter

Re: John Wenborne b.1663

Posted: 1149135534000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1169616141000
As Peter says, information on John is very thin.

There is a baptism of John, son of Thomas, on 12 Jul 1663 in Wadhurst. There is a marriage of John and Ann Waterhouse on 25 Jul 1689 in Wadhurst. Their son Thomas was baptised on 1 Feb 1689/90 in Wadhurst. After that I loose track of John and Ann - I think they must have moved to another parish.

Now, most people credit Thomas (John's father) with being the son of Robert Wenborne and Elizabeth Cruttall, but I don't think it is.

The son of Robert and Elizabeth became a member of the skinners company and a citizen of London. Thomas then seems to have stayed in Southwark, and was buried there in 1689. His will mentions his daughter Marah, wife of Thomas Rowney, his daughter Elizabeth wife of Nicholas Bakewell, his daughter Hester Hudson, a widow, and his son Thomas. There is no mention of a son John, or of any of the other children of Thomas that were baptised in Wadhurst. I think we are dealing with two different Thomas's, and the citizen and skinner is not our ancestor - our ancestor is probably a cousin of his (also called Thomas).

Regards
Jenny

Re: John Wenborne b.1663

Peter Wenban (View posts)
Posted: 1149145073000
Classification: Query
Hi Jenny,

This i a very thorough reply ! I am interested in the sourcing of your data - is it from hands on sight of the written parish and other records as carried out by my uncle and great uncle or from data base information?

Regards,

Peter

Re: John Wenborne b.1663

Posted: 1149147658000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1169616141000
Hi Peter,

Yes, most of the information was from original sources - parish registers, the will of Thomas the Skinner, records of his apprenticeship.

The exception is the details of the burial of Thomas. That comes from a published book by John Aubrey - "The natural history and antiquities of the county of Surrey. Begun in the year 1673 ... Vol. 5." published 1718-19.

In a section on the memorials in St George's Church in Southwark is the following:

"Near this place lyeth interred the Body of Capt. Tho. Wenborn. Cit. and Skinner of London, Inhabitant of the Parish of St. George's, Southwark. Obiit 6 March 1688/9. Aetat 65."

I'll start a new message with all the other information I have on Thomas the Skinner, and how I came to the conclusions that I drew, but it'll take me a day or two to write it all up.

Your uncles did an unbelievably fantastic job to have put together as much as they did, but I'm lucky that more and more information is becoming available these days, and sometimes that needs a rethink of certain conclusions we had drawn in the past. In fact, in one chart Archie wrote out and sent to Lorna (the original is now in the collection in the Mitchell Library), he himself warns that the data from before Thomas Wenban and Susanna Veness is conjectural, as there are some gaps.

Regards
Jenny

Re: John Wenborne b.1663

Peter Wenban (View posts)
Posted: 1149154854000
Classification: Query
You are very assidious in your research. Yes, there is much more data available these days through the internet etc., as well a more traditional sources. However, I have great faith the the uncle's work, done long before all of this, as they did visit the soruces. look at the written records and faithfully copy it down. If you ever get to the Uk and have time to visit Suffolk then you are welcome to look through the very large cupboard, crammed with all the notebooks, published works, files, photographs etc., that they accumulated. It reached a stage of commitment of all his spare time with Archie that his wife was only too glad to quickly pass it over to me immmediately he had died !

I too am cautious over conjectural analysis of data but then I am suspicious of much on the internet. There is a pressure to condense much of it and take short cut conclusions to do that. I know, I'm involved with the media in all its forms and take much with a cynical care !

Lorna did a great job of taking Archie's work and developing it for a comprehensive Australian tree. My wife and I met up with her when we were in Sydney last October. Maybe its time someone updated that tree with the additionally verified data !

The latest word on Wenbans is that it has not been sold, the price demanded being far too high ,and that it is being rented out.

Regards,

Peter

Re: John Wenborne b.1663

Posted: 1149332332000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1169616141000
Hi Peter,

I'd soooo love to come and visit you and see your files, but since we just visited the UK in April I expect (based on past frequency of visits) it'll be 3 or 4 years til we visit again. Some of the papers Archie wrote refer to document (like manorial records) that I haven't been able to access from here, and which haven't made it to the top of my research list for the short times I have for research when I do come over.

The problem is that I married an Englishman, and the trips over are usually to visit his family, and that takes the majority of our time.

As you say, the work done by your uncles is incredible. I have nothing but the greatest admiration for them and owe them such a debt. What they achieved is beyond imagination.

I also completely agree with you about some of the information available on the internet. One person's mistake or slip-shod research is copied by others who treat it as absolute truth without any ability to check the sources.

The areas that are fairly recently available on the internet that I find so valuable are the actual images of the various censuses (the indexes to those censuses are far less reliable). The other VERY valuable resource is A2A - the catalogues of various repositories with summaries of the contents of each document. For example, the entry for East Sussex Records Office: Additional Manuscripts, Cataloge V. The piece with the refernece number AMS6227/50 contains (according to the catalogue) a document recording the fact that William Wemborne of Southwark, stationer (eldest son of Robert Wemborne of Wadhurst gent deceased) sells a house and garden in Ticehurst that had been left to him by his sister Sybyl, and had been left to her by her uncle George Cruttall.

I agree that since Lorna did her work in 1980 there have been many changes (births, marriages, and sadly, deaths) that should be recorded in the Australian records. Maybe (hopefully?) I'll get around to recording one of these days.

Regards
Jenny

Re: John Wenborne b.1663

Posted: 1240690672000
Classification: Query
am looking for decendants of Charles Wenborn born 1872 his sons Edward Wenbourne born 1907 and his brother John Wenborne born 1910. All born in Poplar London. But that is not where they originate from. As you can see the spelling changes 3 times in one family because Charles couldnt read or write.

Re: John Wenborne b.1663

Posted: 1240690975000
Classification: Query
Hello,

I have been researching the Wenbourne side of the family for about 4 years. I have had alot of trouble as to the spelling of course. In one family in my line I have Wenbourne, Wenborn and Wenborne. I have also discovered Wenban and a few others. My line come from Poplar, but did not originate from there. I was wondering if you Could help me information. My line is from New Zealand my grandfather being a merchant seaman.
Sue

Re: John Wenborne b.1663

Posted: 1240726149000
Classification: Query
Hi Sue,

I'm afraid I can't help you with your line that late. You are no doubt related to the families who now use the name Wenban instead of Wenbo(u)rn(e), but I can't tell you the connection at this point in time. The best way to find out where your people originate from is census records.

Regards
Jenny Joyce
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