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Missing deaths, possibly died in quarantine in Ontario?

Replies: 12

Re: Missing deaths, possibly died in quarantine in Ontario?

Posted: 1381065922000
Classification: Query
Edited: 1381087932000
Thanks for the additional information. Very helpful!

A question remains - In your other thread you mentioned that Marthine's mother was referred to as "Elice Hagen." What is the source of that information?

QUOTE: "Mrs. Ole (Martine) Gunderson's obituary ...relaying over the phone so I can't see it...but it says the father jhon .(probably mispelled) skjeggestad and mother is Elice Hagen. Father's father is Gunder Skjeggestad."

Marthine's obituary (the one you posted) doesn't mention her mother's name.

Do you have Marthine's death record? It should list her parents' names. Perhaps that is the source of the name Elice Hagen???

Do you have Marthine's marriage record? That too might list her parents' names (regardless of whether they are living or deceased at the time).

Another variation of the mother's name - Marthine's birth record 07 May 1870 gives her mother's name as Lisa Iversdatter, Her father is noted as gone to America. So John immigrated after about August 1869 and before 07 May 1870. Proposed emigration record for John has him leaving Norway 07 Apr 1870 (see previous thread).

The obit says that when Marthine immigrated "with her parents" the family was destined for La Crosse, Wisconsin. I hope you understand that when people emigrated, the place they named as a destination might vary - they might say the port where they will arrive, or they might say the town that is their final destination. Marthine and her mother and grandparents traveled to the port of Quebec, which was the most common North American port for Norwegian immigrants. From Quebec people traveled to the USA. Depending on where they were going they might travel further by water, on a different boat, going along the Great Lakes. Or they might travel overland by train and/or wagon.

We don't know where John was located at that time (when Marthine immigrated in 1873). We know he immigrated ahead of Marthine and her mother and grandparents. This was a common pattern among immigrants - the father of the family traveled ahead to establish a foothold. When Marthine and her mother Lise and her maternal grandparents left Norway, Lise's parents were age 60. Often times (not always) an immigrant of that age is traveling not so much to make a new life, but rather to remain with their children. Thus it is possible that Lise is the driving force behind that immigration. And in turn, it is thus possible Lise is traveling for a reason, and that reason could be to join John. Lise is bound for La Crosse, and we can guess she intends to join some one there (again, not necessarily, since we don't yet know the whole story).

Though we don't know for sure that John was in La Crosse, we do know his sister "Mrs. B. Skogstad" was in La Crosse. When John immigrated in April 1870, he was traveling with his unmarried sister Ingeborg. Their destination is Sparta, which we can almost certainly guess means Sparta, Monroe, Wisconsin, which was a "landing place" for so many Norwegian immigrants:

Often the destination stated in the emigration record is only a place to land, and the emigrant does not necessarily stay there.

John arrived in Moody County, North Dakota, in 1876, per his obit. He immigrated 1870 - so there is a gap of about six years beforehand. Earlier you wrote, "To my knowledge, John moves to Lone Rock, Moody, South Dakota, USA and stays in the same place." As you later discovered, that was not correct.

Marthine's obit states that she came to Moody County, North Dakota, in 1877 "with her father." The small errors in Marthine's obit suggest the year could also be an error - it's possible that her father John was located near her prior to 1876/1877 and John took her with him when he relocated to North Dakota. Of course it could also be accurate that he traveled ahead, worked for some months or a year to get settled, and then returned to Minnesota to fetch her in 1877. In other words the obituaries don't really rule out the possibility that Lise was traveling to John.

In any case, the information in the obit suggests that La Crosse would be a likely location for Lise and Kari. A significant clue.

And also, the information in the obit confirms that John was "father material" even if you don't consider him "husband material." Both obituaries - for John and for Marthine - mention the father - daughter relationship as key in both their lives. In the 1900 census (in Lone Rock, Moody, South Dakota), John is living with Marthine! and so too is John's sister Ingeborg (born born 17 Feb 1828 in Norway)! None of the facts posted about John fit into the pattern of a dead-beat dad who has abandoned his child and her mother. True that John had at least one or probably two illegitimate children in Norway before Marthine was born, but oh well. It's a common story, that a young couple has a child out of wedlock, and then each goes on to make a stable family with another partner. (We can all probably think of some modern-day families who fit that mode). Also relevant in the discussion of whether or no Lise was traveling to John (that is, was he a "family man"?) - note that in 1865 census in Norway, John's first illegitimate child is living WITH HIM (with John and John's sister Ingeborg).

May we infer that when you earlier wrote that Marthine was "sent to Carl Skogstad and his wife" in La Crosse that you meant that when orphaned at age five, Marthine, who may have already BEEN in La Crosse, then lived with her uncle Skogstad and family, a family in which Carl was a CHILD? Or do you have knowledge that the father of cousin Carl was also named Carl?

A less likely location for Lise but worth noting is Dexter, Mower, Minnesota, where Marthine lived for two years with the Skogstad family (per the obit).

The obit certainly confirms that "Skogstad" was the married name of John's sister "B." So that is another important clue, that Lise might be found buried near any Skogstads buried in the La Crosse area.

Hope you don't mind a suggestion - that if we don't find Lise and Kari now, and you query again in the future (as more records are digitized all the time), you'll benefit from including all the relevant information in your opening query.

Another thought: As you can see, two different people (you and me) can read the obit quite differently. This is an example of how it helps to let the records speak for themselves. By posting a transcription of a record instead of telling about the record, you allow the collaboration with volunteer researchers to yield an interpretation that might be a fresh idea, which could end up being helpful. A transcription of a record includes details that otherwise get omitted, and is also more accurate (for example, posting the immigration record would have eliminated the mistake about saying the family was found "in Ontario"). At the very least posting all relevant records at the start eliminates long discussions (like this one) in which everybody is not making progress but merely trying to get clear about the baseline information.

The family stories remembered by your mother (or any family member) are very useful. Since your mother's memory differs from the obit (about Carl Skogstad being the father in that Skogstad family, not a near-age cousin) then that's a separate source with differing facts, which is also very helpful to include - as you did.

I may not search further today but will at the very least stop back to see if you or barbdale or another volunteer had any luck. Thanks again for the considerable effort you took to expand the information.

P.S. An additional search idea - depending on what actually happened - Lise and/or Kari could also be buried under their patronymic surnames, e.g., "Lise Iversen."

P. P. S. About the link to the burial in Quebec that I posted - I posted that only as an example, that even if a person died at sea, it is possible (as you wondered, about Iver) that they could be buried in Quebec. The person in that record is definitely not in your family. "Your" Lise is not buried in Quebec (unless Marthine's obit is wrong about Lise's approximate date of death, which I doubt, because the rest of it fits).
SubjectAuthorDate Posted
privateprivat... 1367677096000 
barbdale_1 1380002310000 
privateprivat... 1380006178000 
falsterden 1380897910000 
barbdale_1 1380905193000 
falsterden 1380913961000 
sandra brugge... 1381043019000 
sandra brugge... 1381042198000 
sandra brugge... 1381043288000 
falsterden 1381065922000 
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